RE: Knowledge of good and evil

[theatheistguy]

Thanks Skala, have fun being busy

[reformed911]

I think that we can agree that if a person is not capable of knowing what they are doing is wrong (ie having mental handicaps preventing them from being aware) they should not be punished for what they did, or at least have that taken into consideration.

Biblically, transgression from god's law is known as sin, is evil and for the purpose of this thread we will say is punishable by eternity in hellfire.

Now we jump to the story of Adam and Eve, forbidden from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil as it would give them moral knowledge on par with god (no idea why this is a bad thing) and the threat of certain death. However, obviously before eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they did not have this knowledge, did not know they were sinning and therefore cannot be rightfully punished for what they did, nevermind punishing every one of their progeny.

So my question is this, why did god punish people who were unaware of what they were doing and it consequences?

You start with a false premise; that they didn't know they were doing wrong. God clearly, unambiguously told them to never eat of the fruit of that tree.

I'm sorry, what was your question again?

[reformed911]

It's a good thing there's apologists around to let us know what God meant to say, but didn't.

But God did say this... "Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


I'm sorry, what was your question again?

[reformed911]

"Thank God for his mercy"? Yet "it's our condition that blinds us"? Surely god would define what our condition is, and therefore we'd be condemned from the get go. Sounds like a rather unfair situation, we never had a chance.

If I were to set up a similar situation, would I not be deemed immoral?

Do you really believe you deserve a chance? I know I don't deserve a chance.

This is where God's work of faith in us makes all the difference. We can finally understand and appreciate His mercy and grace.

No, I don't deserve it, but God has provided it!

[reformed911]

[quote="theatheistguyTell me, who gives god that right? Does it exist separate to him? Then he is not omnipotent and self-defining. Does he make the rules himself? Then indeed they are arbitrary and made to suit his whim.[/quote]


I would tell you that God is not only Holy but Omnipotent. His Holiness is completely 'other' than ours. No entity "gave" God His power, it is intrinsic to His nature, and as such has always existed and always will!

You clearly know very little of God's nature, and I'm not surprised in the least. The Bible is designed to be understood as a 'whole work'....something you show no desire to tackle.

[theatheistguy]

You start with a false premise; that they didn't know they were doing wrong. God clearly, unambiguously told them to never eat of the fruit of that tree.

I can tell a very young child not to run across the road, I can even tell them that they surely die if they do so, but as they have no comprehension of what is right and wrong, to obey my word or not, they will still try to run across the road at some point.

If I tell someone with a severe mental impairment, who cannot comprehend the outcome of their actions and who cannot differentiate right from wrong, that they should not put their hand on the stove, but they still do it, should I further punish them, or should I try to help them learn from their mistake?

Do you really believe you deserve a chance? I know I don't deserve a chance.

This is where God's work of faith in us makes all the difference. We can finally understand and appreciate His mercy and grace.

No, I don't deserve it, but God has provided it!

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of yourself, and I this is one of the many reasons I detest religion, enforcing unnecessary guilt and shame over something you have not done, or have no control over doing, or over things you should not feel bad about.

I've not met you, know nothing about you, but I'd bet that you're generally a nice person (most people are), you try to do good where and when you can, in many cases placing other's needs before yours, and yes, occasionally slipping up or struggling with something in your life, but overall, you're a good person.

I would tell you that God is not only Holy but Omnipotent. His Holiness is completely 'other' than ours. No entity "gave" God His power, it is intrinsic to His nature, and as such has always existed and always will!

You clearly know very little of God's nature, and I'm not surprised in the least. The Bible is designed to be understood as a 'whole work'....something you show no desire to tackle.

Intrinsic to his nature? Like it's supposedly intrinsic to our nature to 'sin'? Why is his built in morality better than ours? Does it just come down to might makes right?

As for my lack of desire to tackle the bible as a whole, I'm currently reading it, does that change your mind at all?

[Nomad]

You start with a false premise; that they didn't know they were doing wrong. God clearly, unambiguously told them to never eat of the fruit of that tree.

I can tell a very young child not to run across the road, I can even tell them that they surely die if they do so, but as they have no comprehension of what is right and wrong, to obey my word or not, they will still try to run across the road at some point.

If I tell someone with a severe mental impairment, who cannot comprehend the outcome of their actions and who cannot differentiate right from wrong, that they should not put their hand on the stove, but they still do it, should I further punish them, or should I try to help them learn from their mistake?

The problem with your analogy is that Adam and Eve were neither children nor mentally incapacitated. They were fully functioning adults with obvious intelligence. What they lacked in their knowledge of good and evil before the fall is really irrelevant to the question at hand.

One thing is abundantly clear. Adam and Eve were given a direct command by God. Eve demonstrated very clearly that she understood what she was not to do in her interaction with the serpent. A comprehensive knowledge of good and evil is simply not necessary for obedience to a superior. The question for Adam and Eve became one of allegiance. Who is my Lord? Who will I obey? The rest is history.

[theatheistguy]

The problem with your analogy is that Adam and Eve were neither children nor mentally incapacitated. They were fully functioning adults with obvious intelligence. What they lacked in their knowledge of good and evil before the fall is really irrelevant to the question at hand.

One thing is abundantly clear. Adam and Eve were given a direct command by God. Eve demonstrated very clearly that she understood what she was not to do in her interaction with the serpent. A comprehensive knowledge of good and evil is simply not necessary for obedience to a superior. The question for Adam and Eve became one of allegiance. Who is my Lord? Who will I obey? The rest is history.

I think you may have missed my point. The people in my example lacked knowledge of good and evil and therefore cannot be justly punished for their actions. Adam and Eve, previous to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, also lacked this knowledge and understanding, thus they cannot be punished for their actions.

Sin is transgression of god's law, sin is therefore evil, without knowledge of good and evil, how can one know not to transgress god's law?

[Nomad]

Adam and Eve clearly knew that they were not to eat from the forbidden tree. That's all they needed to know. They knowingly and willingly transgressed God's commandment. They were rightly judged.

[theatheistguy]

Adam and Eve clearly knew that they were not to eat from the forbidden tree. That's all they needed to know. They knowingly and willingly transgressed God's commandment. They were rightly judged.

Can you tell me where my logic fails:
Sin is transgression of god's law, sin is therefore evil, without knowledge of good and evil, how can one know not to transgress god's law?

[Nomad]

Again, Adam and Eve knew not to eat from the forbidden tree and they knew the consequences for disobedience. God made that abundantly clear to them. I think the problem here is your understanding of what the 'knowledge of good and evil' actually entails. As I've argued all along in this thread, the true import of this 'knowledge' for Adam and Eve was experiential. I say that because it's painfully obvious from Eve's 'discussion' with the serpent that she understood God's command and the consequences for disobedience. The reaction of Adam and Eve to their own disobedience demonstrates that they did indeed gain a knowledge that they didn't possess before and yet they were still culpable for what they understood before they fell.

[reformed911]

I can tell a very young child not to run across the road, I can even tell them that they surely die if they do so, but as they have no comprehension of what is right and wrong, to obey my word or not, they will still try to run across the road at some point.

If I tell someone with a severe mental impairment, who cannot comprehend the outcome of their actions and who cannot differentiate right from wrong, that they should not put their hand on the stove, but they still do it, should I further punish them, or should I try to help them learn from their mistake?



I've not met you, know nothing about you, but I'd bet that you're generally a nice person (most people are), you try to do good where and when you can, in many cases placing other's needs before yours, and yes, occasionally slipping up or struggling with something in your life, but overall, you're a good person.

I do try, but I firmly believe what God says here: Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Intrinsic to his nature? Like it's supposedly intrinsic to our nature to 'sin'? Why is his built in morality better than ours? Does it just come down to might makes right?

No...it is because He is God ad we are not.

As for my lack of desire to tackle the bible as a whole, I'm currently reading it, does that change your mind at all?

It shows me that you are at least willing try and understand our perspective, and that's admirable.

Do you have children? If so, did you teach them to lie? I ask this because we do know right from wrong and our sinful nature is apparent from an early age. From the time we begin to understand the consequences of our behavior, we don't stop doing things we know to be wrong, we just start trying to figure out ways to get away with it.

Sometimes, despite the most patient, diligent instruction children do things that are harmful to themselves. They quickly learn the consequences of their actions. I suspect that you wouldn't have to tell someone, after touching a hot stove, not to do so again lest they get burned. You act like they would likely do it again.

[grahame]

The problem with your analogy is that Adam and Eve were neither children nor mentally incapacitated. They were fully functioning adults with obvious intelligence. What they lacked in their knowledge of good and evil before the fall is really irrelevant to the question at hand.

One thing is abundantly clear. Adam and Eve were given a direct command by God. Eve demonstrated very clearly that she understood what she was not to do in her interaction with the serpent. A comprehensive knowledge of good and evil is simply not necessary for obedience to a superior. The question for Adam and Eve became one of allegiance. Who is my Lord? Who will I obey? The rest is history.

I think you may have missed my point. The people in my example lacked knowledge of good and evil and therefore cannot be justly punished for their actions. Adam and Eve, previous to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, also lacked this knowledge and understanding, thus they cannot be punished for their actions.

Sin is transgression of god's law, sin is therefore evil, without knowledge of good and evil, how can one know not to transgress god's law?

If you were in the army you would understand that when a command is given to you it is youir duty to obey. If the commanding officer said to a private soldier, "Go and position yourself on that hill over there". What kind of soldier would he be if he asked, "Why?" He would be expected to carry out that order without question. That is how the army keeps order. If no commands were obeyed then the army would fall apart because it would have no discipline.

Similarly it is not necessary for a soldier to know the whole plan of the generals to be obedient. In fact in some cases it is vital for the generals to keep the operation secret, even to the rest od the regiment. Thats how it works and that is only on a human level.

We are not talking about people disobeying because it may hurt them "alone". It is because their actions would affect millions of others. In the case of Adam and Eve it was essential for them to obey God because if they didn't it was not just them it would effect, but the whole of the human race in generation after generation. ie "us".

This is the Christian explanation as to why we have evil men in the world today. Why is it that when unbelievers argue that God is being unfair because he will punish children and the mentally ill. The Bible mentions nothing about the mentally ill or children being punished for what they haven't done. Indeed rather it speaks about those who know full well what they are doing. God is just, not like men who say, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". For that is what our British law says. You defence cannot be, "Well I didn't know it was against the law officer". He will just reply, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" and the judge in the court will say the same and he will punish you accordingly.

God will not do that. For you will not be punished for those things you have not done. Indeed Paul the apostle confirms this in Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

There is a whole section in the Old Testament concerning sins of ignorance if you would like to read about it. Leviticus chapter 4.

But it does seem that God is more tolerant towards sins of ignorance than is man. Man is very unequal regarding the punishments of his enemies. But God have provided a way of forgiveness towards his enemies. For believe it or not the Gospel was devised way back in the eternal counsels before the world began. It isn't just about God punishing sinners. But the reason for all this in the beginning was God's plan to redeem the whole of mankind through Jesus Christ His Son. So by just considering whether certain people deserve to be punished for their sins is just like watching a football match through a crack in the fence. We are only seeing part of the whole game that is privy only to those who have a ticket. Only then will you understand the whole game.