'All men' in the New Testement
by Reformed Baptist » Thu May 27, 2010 1:58 pm
Often when debating about Calvinism we come across this phrase ‘all men’ and it seems that our friends on the other side of the fence assume that this must mean something along the lines of ‘all people everywhere who have ever lived or every will’ Here is a list (based on the AV) of places where 'all men' in the NT simply cannot mean all men everywhere who have ever lived, without making the verse into a nonsense.
KJV Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
KJV Matthew 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
KJV Matthew 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
KJV Mark 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.
KJV Mark 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJV Mark 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
KJV Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
KJV Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
KJV Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
KJV Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
KJV John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
KJV John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
KJV John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
KJV John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
KJV Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
KJV Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
KJV Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
KJV Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
KJV Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
KJV Acts 25:24 And Festus said, King Agrippa, and all men which are here present with us, ye see this man, about whom all the multitude of the Jews have dealt with me, both at Jerusalem, and also here, crying that he ought not to live any longer.
KJV Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
KJV 1 Corinthians 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
KJV 1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
KJV 2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
KJV Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
KJV 1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
KJV 1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
KJV 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
KJV 2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
KJV 2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
KJV Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
KJV 3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
KJV Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
All told ‘all men’ is found 61 times in the NT, So in over half the references to ‘all men’ the meaning is clear, and it does not mean ‘all people who have ever lived or who ever will.’ There are indeed very few references, where such a meaning must be insisted upon. Rather the reference is usually hyperbole or reference to a specific group.
KJV Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
KJV Matthew 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
KJV Matthew 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
KJV Mark 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.
KJV Mark 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJV Mark 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
KJV Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
KJV Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
KJV Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
KJV Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
KJV John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
KJV John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
KJV John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
KJV John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
KJV Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
KJV Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
KJV Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
KJV Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
KJV Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
KJV Acts 25:24 And Festus said, King Agrippa, and all men which are here present with us, ye see this man, about whom all the multitude of the Jews have dealt with me, both at Jerusalem, and also here, crying that he ought not to live any longer.
KJV Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
KJV 1 Corinthians 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
KJV 1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
KJV 2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
KJV Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
KJV 1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
KJV 1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
KJV 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
KJV 2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
KJV 2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
KJV Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
KJV 3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
KJV Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
All told ‘all men’ is found 61 times in the NT, So in over half the references to ‘all men’ the meaning is clear, and it does not mean ‘all people who have ever lived or who ever will.’ There are indeed very few references, where such a meaning must be insisted upon. Rather the reference is usually hyperbole or reference to a specific group.
"After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon
"As we are knit to Christ by faith, so we must be knit to the communion of saints by love" - R Sibbes
"As we are knit to Christ by faith, so we must be knit to the communion of saints by love" - R Sibbes
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by xapis » Thu May 27, 2010 2:09 pm
I would like to build on this by sharing something I wrote last year over on Grace Forums.
1 John 2:2 is a favorite prooftext for the Arminian arguing against the Reformed doctrine of limited atonement. Amyraldians (so-called "four-point Calvinists") appeal to it as well as support for their view of hypothetical universalism. Both groups say that the literal reading of the verse, on its face, offers a clear refutation of the Calvinist view.
But let's find out whose interpretation comes from the the most literal rendering of the passage (grammatically), and is the most faithful (theologically) to the whole of Scripture.
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." —1 Jn. 2:2 (ESV)
First off, we all agree, as orthodox Christians, that this passage is not teaching unconditional universalism, i.e. that everyone in the whole world will be saved in the end no matter what. So both Calvinists and Arminians limit the meaning of "the whole world" in this passage to all those, Jew and Gentile, who have saving faith in Christ. Moreover, to contrast, Calvinist theology limits the scope of the atonement while Arminian theology essentially limits its efficacy.
But there's more to unpack in the passage. I will list my remaining points in an ordered list for clarity's sake.
While we should not base our theological conclusions solely on the mood of one verb, the more literal rendering of 1 Jn. 2:2 actually favors Calvin, not Arminius. This is just one example. And based upon the scores of other passages that do the same, we can confidently conclude that Christ did die only for the elect of God. Christ said "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (Jn. 6:37). He answered the unbelieving Jews in ch. 10:
"But you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." —Jn. 10:26–30
Jesus tells them the reason they do not believe. It is because they are not among those whom God chose to give to Him to be part of His flock. Christ died for these and these alone. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn. 6:44). He accomplished fully all that He came to do. Of His sheep, He loses none.
1 John 2:2 is a favorite prooftext for the Arminian arguing against the Reformed doctrine of limited atonement. Amyraldians (so-called "four-point Calvinists") appeal to it as well as support for their view of hypothetical universalism. Both groups say that the literal reading of the verse, on its face, offers a clear refutation of the Calvinist view.
But let's find out whose interpretation comes from the the most literal rendering of the passage (grammatically), and is the most faithful (theologically) to the whole of Scripture.
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." —1 Jn. 2:2 (ESV)
First off, we all agree, as orthodox Christians, that this passage is not teaching unconditional universalism, i.e. that everyone in the whole world will be saved in the end no matter what. So both Calvinists and Arminians limit the meaning of "the whole world" in this passage to all those, Jew and Gentile, who have saving faith in Christ. Moreover, to contrast, Calvinist theology limits the scope of the atonement while Arminian theology essentially limits its efficacy.
But there's more to unpack in the passage. I will list my remaining points in an ordered list for clarity's sake.
- Arminians believe that Christ made possible propitiation for everyone in the whole world that's ever lived.
- The aspect of the Greek verb that expresses an action's relation to reality is the mood.
- The indicative mood expresses the reality of the action; e.g. "Christ is." The subjunctive mood expresses possible, contingent reality; e.g. "Christ might be."
- The verb of being in this passage (Gr., ἐστιν) is indicative. "He is propitiation," not "He might be propitiation if..."
While we should not base our theological conclusions solely on the mood of one verb, the more literal rendering of 1 Jn. 2:2 actually favors Calvin, not Arminius. This is just one example. And based upon the scores of other passages that do the same, we can confidently conclude that Christ did die only for the elect of God. Christ said "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (Jn. 6:37). He answered the unbelieving Jews in ch. 10:
"But you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." —Jn. 10:26–30
Jesus tells them the reason they do not believe. It is because they are not among those whom God chose to give to Him to be part of His flock. Christ died for these and these alone. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn. 6:44). He accomplished fully all that He came to do. Of His sheep, He loses none.
χάρις
R. "Lane" Bryant
Member (under care), Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (OPC)
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —from Cornelius Van Til's Defense of the Faith
R. "Lane" Bryant
Member (under care), Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (OPC)
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —from Cornelius Van Til's Defense of the Faith
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by Nomad » Thu May 27, 2010 3:59 pm
Here's something I posted on an Arminian board yesterday when an old Arminian favorite was tossed at me, (I Tim. 2:1-4). After I posted this there was an explosion of fury. Did you know I'm narrow minded and offensive? >:D
Yes... you've quoted one of the most abused passages in all of the Bible. All men there means all kinds of men, as in men from every walk of life, men from every tribe tongue and nation, i.e. Jews and Gentiles, not all men exhaustively. Verse 2 through 7 makes this abundantly clear.
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
pas -All
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795
In His Service,
Nomad
Nomad
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by Skala » Thu May 27, 2010 5:25 pm
Nomad, now you're just twisting scripture to support your man made beliefs!!
"What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry
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by Nomad » Thu May 27, 2010 6:05 pm
Skala wrote:Nomad, now you're just twisting scripture to support your man made beliefs!!
If I had a dime for everytime I heard that I would be a rich man!
In His Service,
Nomad
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by alyosha » Sun May 30, 2010 1:12 am
Nomad wrote:Skala wrote:Nomad, now you're just twisting scripture to support your man made beliefs!!
If I had a dime for everytime I heard that I would be a rich man!
Dude, I'd wanna get in on that too! LOL
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by Nomad » Sun May 30, 2010 4:55 am
alyosha wrote:Nomad wrote:Skala wrote:Nomad, now you're just twisting scripture to support your man made beliefs!!
If I had a dime for everytime I heard that I would be a rich man!
Dude, I'd wanna get in on that too! LOL
I'm more than happy to share the wealth!
In His Service,
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by Bornanew » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:08 pm
Not everyone will be saved. Quite clear in Scripture as revealed. I think all men/women have a chance and are not predestined to perish. God is glorifying Himself for sure but in all righteousness.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
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by xapis » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:24 pm
Bornanew wrote:I think all men/women have a chance and are not predestined to perish.
Is our God a god of chance?
χάρις
R. "Lane" Bryant
Member (under care), Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (OPC)
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —from Cornelius Van Til's Defense of the Faith
R. "Lane" Bryant
Member (under care), Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (OPC)
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —from Cornelius Van Til's Defense of the Faith
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by Bornanew » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:27 pm
While men live I say that He is. His foreknowledge is not for us to scrutinise.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
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by Bornanew » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:30 pm
We are charged with preaching a gospel of life, for some it is a gospel of death, lets not stop preaching it I say. Till it's all over. Then we will have the Elect.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
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by Bornanew » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:35 pm
None of my family are saved? Should I give up and just say it's God's will at this stage? Just because of theology I give up because of predestination theology?
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
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by Bornanew » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:37 pm
This I think is the biggest problem with Calvinism. It jumps ahead with its big head and it is not Scriptural.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
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by Bornanew » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:38 pm
Christianity is live. Though many seem to be very removed from understanding this.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
Letter to the Romans 11:33 ESV
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by xapis » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:00 pm
Bornanew,
I'm not sure why you're taking so many posts to communicate your points. It makes it difficult to follow your train of thought. Nevertheless, I will respond to say that Calvinism is as much about the heart as it is the head, brother. I would argue, as several of us here already have, that it is a biblical system of beliefs.
We believe in preaching the gospel universally because God alone knows whom He will call as His own. The Westminster Confession (7.3) states that God "freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved." John Owen writes (in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ), "The preachers of the gospel, in their particular congregations, being utterly unacquainted with the purpose and secret counsel of God, being also forbidden to pry or search into it, (Deut. 29: 29) may justifiably call upon every man to believe, with assurance of salvation to every one in particular upon his so doing; knowing and being fully persuaded of this, that there is enough in the death of Christ to save every one that shall do so; leaving the purpose and counsel of God on whom He will bestow faith and for whom in particular Christ died, to Himself. When God calls upon men to believe, He does not in the first place call upon them to believe that Christ died for them: but that there is none other name under heaven among men, whereby we must be saved, but only of Jesus Christ, through whom salvation is preached."
You are not to give up hope on your dear family, not until after the last of them has breathed his/her last breath; and even then, you can trust their souls to the just and holy, yet endlessly gracious God we love and serve. Rom. 8:28ff. apply well here.
I'm not sure why you're taking so many posts to communicate your points. It makes it difficult to follow your train of thought. Nevertheless, I will respond to say that Calvinism is as much about the heart as it is the head, brother. I would argue, as several of us here already have, that it is a biblical system of beliefs.
We believe in preaching the gospel universally because God alone knows whom He will call as His own. The Westminster Confession (7.3) states that God "freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved." John Owen writes (in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ), "The preachers of the gospel, in their particular congregations, being utterly unacquainted with the purpose and secret counsel of God, being also forbidden to pry or search into it, (Deut. 29: 29) may justifiably call upon every man to believe, with assurance of salvation to every one in particular upon his so doing; knowing and being fully persuaded of this, that there is enough in the death of Christ to save every one that shall do so; leaving the purpose and counsel of God on whom He will bestow faith and for whom in particular Christ died, to Himself. When God calls upon men to believe, He does not in the first place call upon them to believe that Christ died for them: but that there is none other name under heaven among men, whereby we must be saved, but only of Jesus Christ, through whom salvation is preached."
You are not to give up hope on your dear family, not until after the last of them has breathed his/her last breath; and even then, you can trust their souls to the just and holy, yet endlessly gracious God we love and serve. Rom. 8:28ff. apply well here.
χάρις
R. "Lane" Bryant
Member (under care), Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (OPC)
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —from Cornelius Van Til's Defense of the Faith
R. "Lane" Bryant
Member (under care), Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (OPC)
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —from Cornelius Van Til's Defense of the Faith
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