1 Tim 4:7 - old wives fables?

[Reformed Baptist]

1 Tim 4:7 τοὺς δὲ βεβήλους καὶ γραώδεις μύθους παραιτοῦ. Γύμναζε δὲ σεαυτὸν πρὸς εὐσέβειαν·

Are these tales told by old wives or tails suitable for old wives?

[Greektome]

ReformedBaptist

Are these tales told by old wives or tails suitable for old wives?

I don't think so but then again maybe. The Greek here seems to suggest that possibility.

GTM

[Reformed Baptist]

thnaks gtm, how would you translate it?

[Greektome]

ReformedBaptist

thanks gtm, how would you translate it?

I am heading out of town and will not be back until Monday. But I would very much enjoy further discussion on this one.

Thank you for your patience .

GTM

[Reformed Baptist]

have a good trip brother, next week I move to a new town

[Nomad]

1 Tim 4:7 τοὺς δὲ βεβήλους καὶ γραώδεις μύθους παραιτοῦ. Γύμναζε δὲ σεαυτὸν πρὸς εὐσέβειαν·

Are these tales told by old wives or tails suitable for old wives?

RB,

The words 'βεβήλους' and 'γραώδεις' are adjectives that modify the noun 'μύθους' and are preceded by the article. This makes them attributive adjectives as opposed to substantival or predicate adjectives. In other words, 'βεβήλους' (profane) and 'γραώδεις' (old woman-ish) describe the 'kind' of fable or tale that Paul has in mind. With that in mind, I believe Paul makes reference to tales that are 'suitable' for old wives. They're the kind they would communicate.

[Reformed Baptist]

Thanks Nomad, that is the way I was leaning, but confirmation is good for the soul

[Greektome]

ReformedBaptist

Clearly with out question, these are tales which are being told and aren't based upon truth. I believe that we must understand this text to be a deception that is actually taking place within believers. If we understand the true meaning of a wives tale it brings more clarity.

Verses 6-8
6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

Verse 6 What things? This idea might be anaphoric based upon the first five verses of the text. Yet it also might be cataphoric. It is cataphoric in the sense that there is further explanation of the description of the problem which is seen in the term wives tales.

So here is the bottom line, the Christians were believing a lie based upon the text.Question is, "What was that lie"? I believe that the clues are in the term Wives Tales. In addition to that the Greek text gives added clarity that might be more difficult to see in the English.

GTM

[Nomad]

In addition to that the Greek text gives added clarity that might be more difficult to see in the English.

In what way does the Greek text give added clarity that might be more difficult to see in the English?

[Greektome]

Nomad

I apologize for my slowness. These old bones are what they once were.

1 Timothy 4:7

Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

τους δε βεβηλους και γραωδεις μυθους παραιτου γυμναζε δε σεαυτον προς ευσεβειαν

παραιτου carries the strong meaning, "To refuse" It can also me to decline,reject, avoid, or to be excused. There is a personal human element here that must be recognized.

βεβηλους in this text must be understood as unholy or void of godliness. It carries the idea of profanity.

μυθους a fiction, fable or falsehood and I believe that all the terms apply here.

γυμναζε is a term that speaks of athletes that go to the gym. In the case of this text we would understand it to mean mental exercise and this gives us the anaphor for παραιτου or to refuse. It is a battle that must be fought and it is an exercise that must continue.

προς would be understood here as meaning "With a goal in mind".

That goal is godliness. ευσεβειαν

We now have to wrestle with some difficulties. Godliness is not something that we do but it is something that is accomplished.

The writer is saying that while physical exercise is important it only lasts for a season and while man attempts to be pious I believe that the same idea hold true for that action attempted by man.

Godliness (ευσεβειαν) is to be understood as reverence, respect and piety towards God.

Vincent points out, " Godliness involves a promise for this life and for the next; but for this life as it reflects the heavenly life, is shaped and controlled by it, and bears its impress."

In chapter 1:4 we see that Paul mentions fable and I believe that the idea carries through to this text. The doctrines that Paul speaks of were made up and had no basis on the scriptures or the teachings of Christ. It appears as if Timothy was coming up with some new plans and was going to leave the Church for another Ministry.

ἑτεροδιδασκαλεῖν this is a translation of the negative and means teach no other doctrine but it also carries the imbedded idea that what was being taught was made up. This would be the Wives Tales.

ReformedBaptist asked

Are these tales told by old wives or tails suitable for old wives?

I would say that it depends upon how one defines wives tales. There are several possibilities including one that is finds its root in the Semitic writings. But what we can say for sure is that they someone was spreading these wives tales.

GTM

[Reformed Baptist]

GTM, Nomad,

Thanks for your thoughts on this guys , I think we are getting there!

would say that it depends upon how one defines wives tales. There are several possibilities including one that is finds its root in the Semitic writings. But what we can say for sure is that they someone was spreading these wives tales.

But were the wives doing the spreading?

[Nomad]

But were the wives doing the spreading?

I don't see anything in the context of the passage which would indicate that Paul is being that particular. I think he has a more general source in mind for these 'wives tales.' Keeping the historical context of the first century in mind I think John Gill hits the nail on the head with the following comment:

1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables,.... Either Jewish ones, the traditions of the elders; or those of the Gnostics, concerning God, angels, and the creation of the world; or those doctrines of demons, and which forbad marriage, and commanded abstinence from meats before mentioned; which are called profane, because impious and ungodly, and old wives' fables, because foolish and impertinent; and which were to be rejected with abhorrence and contempt, in comparison of the words of faith and good doctrine.

[Greektome]

The term "old wives tales' can be traced back to the time of Plato and actually I believe there are quotes available by Plato. Paul seems to incorporate this idea into this text so it is most likely an expression to covey the character of the gossip that was taking place at the time.. While there may have been old Wives spreading ungodly teachings this text does not limit this practice to just old wives.

For now I agree with Nomad

GTM

[Reformed Baptist]

Ecellent, as we are all in agreement I can now go back to my freind with a the confidence that the scholars are on my side

[Nomad]

Ecellent, as we are all in agreement I can now go back to my freind with a the confidence that the scholars are on my side

Yes, tell him we have spoken.